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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 09 Nov 2011 - 19:46 Post title : Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. | | | Just thought I would post this copy of the 'chirping' post that has been running for a while. This, although not fully tested yet, is my answer to the needle roller bearing that has given me hell for a while. I shall post my feelings on the conversion here to save bringing up the same old stuff over and over on that post. If there is anyone out there that has reasons to think this may not work - please speak up - I would hate to think I have missed something. 
I have done my little bearing conversion. A lot easier than I originally thought. All I had to do was make a new bearing spacer (31 diam x 14.75 long x 20 bore) then press in the larger inner bearing and circlip, turn it over, drop in the new spacer and press the three 61904-2rs (Timken) bearings into the bore that the needle bearing came out of. They sit just 1mm further out than the needle did. The original seal pushes in next and then the flanged (top hat type) spacer and in goes the wheel.
The 1 mm extra protrusion on the bearings is no problem - could have been solved by turning 1mm off the inner face of the flanged spacer - but I didnt need to.
The new sealed bearings in place before the outer seal is fitted.
I did find that the seal had worn a groove in the flanged spacer - pretty normal for it to do this. This is why water etc can get into the needle bearing. The needle bearing is a quality INA bearing with each end of the needles sealed with a small 'o' ring type seal. I have no doubt that the bearing is well on top of the job but are prone to damage though an ingress of small particles - grit shit and mud to name a few.
The small shallow groove can be seen on the smaller diam of the flanged short spacer. Also damage is visible on the longer inner race/spacer caused by the needle roller bearing - but its not totalled.
So its off for testing when I get a min or two.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 10 Nov 2011 - 12:37 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | First test - no sqeek , chirp or noise. Runs smooth. No heat build up in bearing area - not that there was much before but its a good sign on a first test.
 for now.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| DizzE | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Nov 2011 - 15:09 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | Will you be able to provide an upgrade set to me?
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 10 Nov 2011 - 16:22 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: DizzE) | | | Not a problem. But I would rather run mine for a good few miles before I'm happy with it. It is actually cheaper to do this conversion than buying the needle bearing. its basically 3 bearing and a stainless spacer.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| Xfarmer | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 05/11/2011 | | Posts | : | 407 | | Location | : | Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Nov 2011 - 16:30 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | I have one observation: Since there is a little more friction in a roller bearing than the needle bearing, especially since you are adding two sealed roller bearings, is the shaft that goes through the bearings more likely to spin in the bearing? Or is there enough weight against it that this not a concern?
| John
Suzuki Boulevard S83, 2010 T-Bird 1700
***Love one woman.... many guitars.***
artjohnmayer.com
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 10 Nov 2011 - 23:52 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Xfarmer) | | | There is a tighter tolerance in this mod than the previos. I know where your coming from on this one. I was quite suprised at the amount of 'float' that they have given, we're loking at 0.3 mm between bore and spindle diam. This setup is tighter. I am adding three bearings. Don't forget that all the inner races are clamped together - as are mine. And also - the cush drive is a seperate entity to the actual wheel set up.
Good to see you are on the ball. If you have any more observations - I would like to hear them.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| Xfarmer | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 05/11/2011 | | Posts | : | 407 | | Location | : | Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States |
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| | Posted : 11 Nov 2011 - 03:47 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | Looks like a logical upgrade. Makes me wonder what the reasoning was, to not do it this way initially.
| John
Suzuki Boulevard S83, 2010 T-Bird 1700
***Love one woman.... many guitars.***
artjohnmayer.com
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 11 Nov 2011 - 08:10 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Xfarmer) | | | I would have liked to go with a larger bearing like there is on the inner part of the cush drive. If I'm not happy with setup then I shall do that. It means making a whole new drive flange and I have a spare r/pulley to bore bigger. Its what I was planning on doing so I'm prepared.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 11 Nov 2011 - 20:15 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Xfarmer) | | | Here's what it looks like now.
The only new bits are the three bearings and the middle spacer.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
| | Post edited by mat1600 on 11 Nov 2011 - 20:24 |
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| zolti | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 12 Nov 2011 - 07:16 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | class mat
double sealed bearings too, that should keep the waether out.
loving the sectional views.... drool
every picture tells......
heres to a successull trial.
long term will be interesting
swap the wheel with ivan ( he will never notice the colour change, ive seen his taste in art  ) then send him on a few missions he will crack up a few thou in a couple of days
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| Linkdog | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 10/02/2011 | | Posts | : | 2,923 | | Location | : | Groveland, FL., United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Nov 2011 - 20:11 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: zolti) | | | Do you need a pilot shaft to "line up" the inner spacer whilst the bearings are pressed in?
| Never drink from a cow with one udder! 2010 1600 Blue&White ( of course ) Long TORS and HP filter.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 13 Nov 2011 - 23:38 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Linkdog) | | | No. Just fits like normal.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| feduke | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 11/08/2009 | | Posts | : | 2,441 | | Location | : | Daytona Beach, Florida, United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Nov 2011 - 23:58 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | You guys truly amaze me. Let's see, clockwise makes it tighter, right?
I do know, if you stand with your left foot on west you are always facing north. Very useful (unless it's different in metric?)
| I'm a secondhand vegetarian. Cows eat grass. I eat cows.
| | Post edited by feduke on 14 Nov 2011 - 00:00 |
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| Jhend | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 16/03/2011 | | Posts | : | 135 | | Location | : | Caernarfon, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 14 Nov 2011 - 07:18 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: feduke) | | | Mat
How is the testing going?
Very interested in this mod. I've just got another rear drive pully that I'm sending off for powder coating to match my powder coated wheels (hate cleaning wheels) if the mod proves to be an improvement I would happily pay for the kit.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 14 Nov 2011 - 07:18 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: feduke) | | |
feduke wrote:
You guys truly amaze me. Let's see, clockwise makes it tighter, right?
I do know, if you stand with your left foot on west you are always facing north. Very useful (unless it's different in metric?) |
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| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| BlueNose | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 29/09/2009 | | Posts | : | 2,478 | | Location | : | United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 14 Nov 2011 - 08:13 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | |
mat1600 wrote:
Here's what it looks like now.
The only new bits are the three bearings and the middle spacer.
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Wow, I never knew you did something useful!!
Impressive stuff mate and I know you are trying to mod that slow blue and white Bird to make it compete with the black ones. I keep telling you that a can of black spray paint is all you need!
Missed a good ride yesterday BUT I needed a shovel to clean my bike afterwards.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 14 Nov 2011 - 09:31 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Jhend) | | |
Jhend wrote:
Mat
How is the testing going?
Very interested in this mod. I've just got another rear drive pully that I'm sending off for powder coating to match my powder coated wheels (hate cleaning wheels) if the mod proves to be an improvement I would happily pay for the kit. |
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Had a good fast ride (80 miles) to give it a test. Two up and got upto the 90 - 100mph lots of hard acceleration and low rev chugging. Checked for any heat build up and temp was the same as the other side so I guess its ok. Front wheel bearings are cooled better. I shall run it for a couple of months and then strip it back down to see what its like.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 14 Nov 2011 - 09:34 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: BlueNose) | | |
BlueNose wrote:
Impressive stuff mate and I know you are trying to mod that slow blue and white Bird to make it compete with the black ones. I keep telling you that a can of black spray paint is all you need!
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Sorry I missed the ride. Would have been better than what I was doing.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 14 Nov 2011 - 13:44 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | |
mat1600 wrote:
Jhend wrote:
Mat
How is the testing going?
Very interested in this mod. I've just got another rear drive pully that I'm sending off for powder coating to match my powder coated wheels (hate cleaning wheels) if the mod proves to be an improvement I would happily pay for the kit. |
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Had a good fast ride (80 miles) to give it a test. Two up and got upto the 90 - 100mph lots of hard acceleration and low rev chugging. Checked for any heat build up and temp was the same as the other side so I guess its ok. Front wheel bearings are cooled better. I shall run it for a couple of months and then strip it back down to see what its like.
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PayPal is standing by....
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| Linkdog | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 10/02/2011 | | Posts | : | 2,923 | | Location | : | Groveland, FL., United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Nov 2011 - 04:17 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | Just wondering Matt, with the tighter tolarence do you think the belt will track better?
| Never drink from a cow with one udder! 2010 1600 Blue&White ( of course ) Long TORS and HP filter.
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 20 Nov 2011 - 11:43 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Linkdog) | | |
Linkdog wrote:
Just wondering Matt, with the tighter tolarence do you think the belt will track better? |
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Well - we are only looking at .1mm better fit. The tolerance is there so you can get it all out. I had no tracking probs before and I still dont. My belt runs bang on in the middle.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| CornerBanger | | Jupiter | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 07/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 1,113 | | Location | : | Charleston, SC, United States |
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| | Posted : 22 Nov 2011 - 16:18 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | Matt,
When you are done with testing I would like to either, buy the new spacer from you or get the measurements so I can have one made. Also, any idea where to get the correct bearings? I am taking the bike out of service around the middle of Dec to get the wheels chromed. Since I have to pull all of the bearings and seals out, this would be a good time to convert to this setup.
| There are those who own and there are those who ride! 
2010 Thunderbird
2007 Kawi KX250F
2010 Kawi KX85 (My boy's ride)
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 22 Nov 2011 - 18:17 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: CornerBanger) | | | CornerBanger wrote:
Matt,
When you are done with testing I would like to either, buy the new spacer from you or get the measurements so I can have one made. Also, any idea where to get the correct bearings? I am taking the bike out of service around the middle of Dec to get the wheels chromed. Since I have to pull all of the bearings and seals out, this would be a good time to convert to this setup. |
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All you need is three 61904-2rs (2x rubber seal) and your standard shaft seal that you take out to get the needle roller out. I used Timken bearings but any other GOOD quality should do. The spacer is 31mm Diam. x 14.75mm long (+ or - .1mm) x 20 inside diam. (shaft size) +.1mm -0.mm. I used a bit of stainless to give a bit better strength, and as water gets in it should not rust.
Mine spent a good 5 hours running at between 60mph and 100mph on saturday with no probs. I am waiting for the Avon rear to wear down then I shall pull the drive flange to check the bearings - i'm fairly confident that they will be as good as new.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
| | Post edited by mat1600 on 22 Nov 2011 - 18:19 |
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| Sensiblepete | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 20/08/2011 | | Posts | : | 158 | | Location | : | Sweden |
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| | Posted : 30 Nov 2011 - 16:01 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | |
mat1600 wrote:
CornerBanger wrote:
Matt,
When you are done with testing I would like to either, buy the new spacer from you or get the measurements so I can have one made. Also, any idea where to get the correct bearings? I am taking the bike out of service around the middle of Dec to get the wheels chromed. Since I have to pull all of the bearings and seals out, this would be a good time to convert to this setup. |
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All you need is three 61904-2rs (2x rubber seal) and your standard shaft seal that you take out to get the needle roller out. I used Timken bearings but any other GOOD quality should do. The spacer is 31mm Diam. x 14.75mm long (+ or - .1mm) x 20 inside diam. (shaft size) +.1mm -0.mm. I used a bit of stainless to give a bit better strength, and as water gets in it should not rust.
Mine spent a good 5 hours running at between 60mph and 100mph on saturday with no probs. I am waiting for the Avon rear to wear down then I shall pull the drive flange to check the bearings - i'm fairly confident that they will be as good as new.
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Very impressive conversion job you have done, and easy to implement too. It will certainly keep the water out of the bearings. One question would be if you have done any comparison between the load capacity of the needle bearing and that of the three roller bearings? I was thinking if the three bearings would hold up the load of a long and hot ride with a fully loaded bike?
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 30 Nov 2011 - 16:11 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Sensiblepete) | | | Sensiblepete wrote:
Very impressive conversion job you have done, and easy to implement too. It will certainly keep the water out of the bearings. One question would be if you have done any comparison between the load capacity of the needle bearing and that of the three roller bearings? I was thinking if the three bearings would hold up the load of a long and hot ride with a fully loaded bike? |
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The load capacity of the three bearings is the same as the needle bearing - but that is working on the theory of the load on one bearing times by three - where as the actual load capacity would probs be higher with three put together. The load is a radial load only - no static load ( where the needle is much greater)
At 60mph the bearing is only doing 14.5rpm .(at a quick quess)
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
| | Post edited by mat1600 on 30 Nov 2011 - 16:58 |
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 10 Jan 2012 - 15:28 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Jhend) | | | Because of bad climate I have only managed around a 1000 miles over winter, not as many as I wanted for testing. But, that said - all is good - not a sound and no constant lubeing.
Looking good.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| zolti | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 10 Jan 2012 - 21:29 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | wimp 
you do have a switch for the headlight
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 10 Jan 2012 - 22:55 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: zolti) | | |
zolti wrote:
wimp
you do have a switch for the headlight |
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you lot up there get to use the lights more, what the 6 months of darkness over winter. 
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| Gonzo | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 01/05/2010 | | Posts | : | 643 | | Location | : | Sydney, NSW, Australia |
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| | Posted : 19 Feb 2012 - 23:31 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: mat1600) | | | Holy cow! Those drawings are great. Did you create the 3D models yourself or do you have access to the Triumph originals? Unreal! :)
How go the tests? Have you inspected them yet?
Also, do you have a link or such to the Tech bulletin for the Drive Flange Assembly needing placement for certain older Birds? My dealer is knowing NOTHING about it and I'd love to stick it under his nose.
Gonzo
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Red XIII
Mods: locking gas cap; ISO-Wings for passenger; engine guards; dresser bars; Arlen Ness LED licence plate holder, rego tube and coloured number plate; long TORs; Pilot highway pegs w/ Magnum clamps; windshield; lower deflectors (customised); ISO grips; HD switch-block; Hardstreet Slimbags (colour matched); Corbin dual tour seat; Luggage rack & bag.
Todo: Various chroming of hand-made parts, Convex mirrors
Wishlist: Mini-ape handlebars, Hard clearcoat over tank
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| mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 20 Feb 2012 - 00:18 Post title : Re: Convert from the needle bearing to ball roller bearings. (Re: Gonzo) | | | I did the drawings myself from the original parts. The testing is going to plan - as expected. Dont worry about the drive flange - its going to last for ages. Its a tried and tested industrial solution and is used in conditions a lot worse than motorcycles - it won't fail. I don't realy need to inspect the bearings, they sound ok (no sound at all). So all is well at the mo - 1000 miles of shitty Yorkshire roads.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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